Tuesday, July 28, 2009

What about the people in a “wrong” church?

“…if one is, for example, a Mormon, and you believe what you're told 100%, and you're absolutely sure about it - you STILL end up in hell? …it just seems sort of unfair.”

So this is the question I received recently, and which I will try and attempt to answer. I don’t like to point fingers at specific denominations, but there are many strange denominations out there for which the question above seems relevant. In truth, I think it applies to most people in most churches – even the mainstream ones, because most churches are so far removed from true Biblical teaching that an honest Bible scholar stands confounded.

Other Sheep

I’ll start my answer by quoting Jesus: “And I have other sheep which are not of this fold: those also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16).

I think the text is clear; there are other sheep in other folds (denominations, sects, even maybe religions) whom Jesus considers His sheep.

Ignorance Overlooked

My second quotations comes from Paul: “God therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent, because he has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead” (Acts 17:30, 31).

From this text it seems that in God’s mercy, God “overlooked the times of ignorance”. It appears consistent with God’s character, as I understand God. God do not judge us unfairly. We will be judged by the light we received. In other words, we are not judged by what we do not know, but by what we do know. I think it is for this reason that it is written somewhere that the (Bible) teachers and preachers will be held more accountable (because they knew more) than the laity.

The words above by Paul suggest also that once we learned a truth, we ought to live up to that Truth. Let’s say you are in a church lacking in some Biblical Truth, and you then learn a Truth; you have come out of ignorance and moved into knowledge of that Truth. Since you are not in ignorance anymore, God “…now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent…” The word “repent” is from the Greek word metanoeō, which means to “think differently afterwards”. Once you’ve moved from ignorance to knowledge of aTruth, God expects us to think differently (i.e. repent); in other words, we ought to live up to the Truth we have acquired.

Receive Plagues by Association

The third text I want to quote is from the visions shown to John the Apostle by Jesus.

“And I heard another voice out of the heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins, and that ye do not receive of her plagues: for her sins have been heaped on one another up to the heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses” (Revelation 18:4, 18:5).

The angel appeals to us living in the End Times to “come out of her”. The immediate context tells us who “she” is: “Babylon the great” (Revelation 18:2). In Bible prophecy a women represents a religious group. For instance, a pure woman is symbolic of God’s true followers, and an unchaste, adulterous woman is symbolic of God’s followers that became unfaithful. Babylon, in this passage, is symbolic of the religious systems (specifically the great Christian institutions), and her actions are described as follows: “For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies” (Revelation 18:3). A fitting description of what Christianity and world religions have become, making ties with kings (rules of countries, i.e. politicians) and merchants (corporate powers and businesses).

Well, the first text I quoted from Revelation suggests that we come out of Babylon, because she is going to receive “plagues”, and if we keep association with her, we will receive these plagues too. Although there is a period while God “overlooked the times of ignorance”, it seems that a time will come when Babylon will receive “plagues” and if we still find ourselves in Babylon, we will also receive these “plagues” with her. A time will come when we cannot continue to play the ignorance trump card; therefore the plea from the angel to "Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins."

Ignorance Is Not a Cop-out

Another text, by Paul again, also suggests that ignorance is not always a cop-out.

“This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye should no longer walk as the rest of the nations walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in understanding, estranged from the life of God by reason of the ignorance which is in them, by reason of the hardness of their hearts, who having cast off all feeling, have given themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greedy unsatisfied lust” (Ephesians 4:17-19).

Some people are ignorant because of the “hardness of their hearts.” In other words, they have hardened their hearts against Truth about God; they have deliberately resisted the Truth. Such “ignorance” will not be overlooked.

Short Answer

Will a sincere believer, whom lives up to the light he or she received, but whom happens to be in the wrong denomination, be lost? Probably not.

6 comments:

Adam said...

quoting Jesus: “And I have other sheep which are not of this fold: those also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16).

I think the text is clear; there are other sheep in other folds (denominations, sects, even maybe religions) whom Jesus considers His sheep.

Mormons believe that Jesus is referring to the people of the Americas when he makes this statement. They believe that after making this statement he then appears / goes to the Americas and preaches, teaches, and proselytizes to bring the indiginous people of the Americas into one flock under one shepard.

morbidneko said...

I always thought that if I just follow the ten commandments, and not do anything too shameful (re. 7 sins), I should be fine.

Now that I know better, it's too late, isn't it - to go back?

^_^

My next question (and I feel rather honoured about you taking my doubts and inquisitiveness seriously... is that a word? inquisitiveness?); now that I know all these things, how do I get to heaven/become more Christ-like? (As opposed to christian)

I know that in the bible, the same is asked of Jesus, more or less.

And, He replies that the most important commandment is the 1st one, and the second one, which is just as important (wat daarmee gelykstaan ) is to love your neighbour.

which brings me to the conclusion that my prior belief system was correct? ... but, just not complete? Am I right?

In following the 10 commandments, isn't that half the job of getting to heaven and being with God?

Was I wrong, as some would have me believe. ("That's not enough", they would say. "It's not the way!"

How do I then, in addition to this, become more Christ-like?

Some would have me believe I have to read the whole bible, and take everything literally - live it out.

I don't know.

And, what does it mean to truly "Love God above all else" and "Love your neighbour as yourself"? How extreme does it go?

And, why do people think the bible needs to be interpreted? Wasn't it brought into existence, so we all could understand and follow?

Does "Love God above all else" mean that we must all become nuns/monks and do nothing but pray?

What about the line in the bible that says for 6 days you must work and do what you must, and on the 7th day rest? doesn't that mean that God intended for us to have lives outside of church?

and, "love your neighbour as yourself" - does that mean I have to provide all the hobo's in my area with cellphones? Isn't that a life choice they made? What about the glue sniffers? If I give them money or clothes, they'll just feed their addiction.

If that were me - well, I wouldn't be in that position... as far as I know.

I just don't know.

Ever since I was told my belief system is wrong and I'm going to hell because I don't do enough and I don't know what I'm talking about when I say I do believe, I've been in doubt, and serious worrying for my soul.

I've always just prayed in my head, whenever. "God, the clouds look beautiful today. God, thank you for my husband, thank you for my baby, please help us if it is Your will."

Is prayer only effective when done on the knees?

I figured the 10 Commandments are key. Stick to them, and I'll be fine.

I figured God knows me, because my grandparentals are hectically religious. Doesn't God show His love into the 1'000th generation of those who love Him?

I'm confused.

I never really felt comfortable in church. It all seemed a bit forced, conservative, hypocritical.

There is pressure from the parentals (both sides) to go to church... But, why? Why should we if it only freaks me out..?

Then I was told being religious, and a good Christian is about doing what God wants you to do, not about being comfortable. (insert quote about lukewarm people being spat out).

Some people can be so judgemental and ... hypocritical.

Prophet, what am I supposed to believe?

I think I lead a good life, I stick to the commandments. I don't read my bible as much as I suppose I should, and can't remember the last time I was in church.

Does that make me a heathen?

I believe on the inside. Every day. Is that enough?

Mary-Jane said...

"Love God, do good, then shut up and go home." Sylvia Browne

I think this just about sums it up.

Prophet Kangnamgu said...

Adam,

Thank you for the insight. I read a little of the Book of Mormon years ago, but cannot say that I know too much about Mormon-beliefs -- just enough to know that the Mormon idea of God is just too physical for my metaphysical/philosophical understanding of God.

Prophet Kangnamgu said...

@MorbidNeko

After this post on "people in *wrong* churches", I really expected the next question to be about "people in *wrong* religions". But that was not the question; instead you came back with 20 other questions. (I counted the question marks, and they are over twenty.)

Clearly not an endeavour I can take on in one reply. So I'll try to find the gist, and/or group some questions together, and attempt some answers.

The one question I will not answer is "What am I suppose to believe?" This I cannot do. What if I'm wrong?!

What you are supposed to believe is a question between you and God. The best I can do is share with you what I believe (and maybe, why I believe it).

Adam said...

Prophet,
I agree with you. I have a pretty decent understanding of the Mormon religion and can't get fully comfortable with some of the views on the physicality of God, Kobol, etc. Some of their teachings I beleive are sound and doctrinally true, but others seem to come out of 'left field' and I'm left scratching my head. I had just posted my comment as something of interest.